walking into the fire - small circulation

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walking into the fire - small circulation

Postby laotse » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:05 am

Hi

I’ve got a question about a text excerpt from dr. yangs new book about small circulation.

Here the excerpt (pg. 229):

“qi enters the fire and water pahts through the tricky gate at weilu. Contracting and relaxing the huiyin muscles pumps qi throught weilu into the fire path or the water path. In the beginning, qi will tend to flow to the legs instead, because the qi paths to the legs are wide open. This is not a problem if the qi ist weak, but abundant qi can be dangerous if you don’t lead it into the correct path.
When abundant qi encounters its first obstacle at the weilu gate, it may instead rush down to the legs and damage the nervous system there. This is called “walking into the fire”, well known as the first danger of practise, which can paralyze the legs. When you meditate, it is important to sit with crossed legs, to block off the qi flow to the legs. …”

When the qi is abundant, why it is saver to first complete the small circualation and then practise the large circulation where you lead the chi into the legs?
When the qi is abundant, than its also abundant when the small circulation is open.

I ever thought, that the connection to the earth and open channels to the earth prevent many dangers of energy arts.

I know meditations cds from mantak chia, where he starts the microcosmic orbit at the navel, then go down to huiyin and then the yongyuan, to the earth, up to huiyin again and the the other points of the microcosmic. He never speaks from this kind of danger.

So, wheres the problem
Hope, you can help
Thanks

Yours
laotse
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Postby Dvivid » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:54 am

It is generally safer to practice Small Circulation first, and gradually build your Qi circulation in the Small Circulation orbit, or microcosmic orbit, without letting the Qi into your legs.

Exchanging Qi with nature, such as with the Earth in the Yongquan breathing you describe (through the feet) would be considered Grand Circulation. This can be safe too, but once you start to accumulate abundant Qi in your practice, it is recommended to focus on your Small Circulation and develop and widen the channels and vessels in the torso, so that any abundant Qi will naturally flow there, rather than going into the legs, which can be dangerous.
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Postby laotse » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:50 am

hi

thanks for your answer.

but what kind of feeling will tell me, that my chi is abundant?
does it needs ten years to collect so many chi that i can call it abundant?
or is it a great heat in the dantien? i think this word is very confusing....

the teacher who teached me the microcosmic meant, its important to build the roots first, to have a good connection to the earth. (so everybody says other things, how ever.)
i can lead my chi everywhere, into the legs or up the spine, as i want. but my teacher told me, that it is better, when the chi naturally flow down to the earth, because the only thing which i dangerous, he meant, is when there is too many abundant chi in the head. so my chi naturally flow down to the earth. so what to do? pcmuscle training?

when the energylevels increase with the widening of the chi channels i would call it more naturally, as when i collect amounts of chi and then move it around.

regards
laotse
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Postby Dvivid » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:45 pm

Dan tien means 'elixir field'. We can just speak English and say 'energy center.'

You are only a danger to yourself when your Qi is "abundant". When your Qi builds up in the lower energy center, the front of your abdomen may feel warm, or it may start to wiggle and twitch.

By PC muscle, you mean the kegel muscle in the perenium area. This is the Hui Yin cavity. It is essential in all Qigong practice that the Hui Yin moves in coordination with each breath.

The channels can only widen by increased Qi circulation. So, both things you are saying are one.

The standing breathing to the Earth sounds like a good health exercise to develop the channels in the legs. However, for Small Circulation, you want to isolate Qi circulation in the torso, while avoiding accumulating Qi in the head, or allowing it to enter through the tricky gates.

In Small Circ. you must keep your mind several places at once. Ideally you should understand how to hold your mind in the center of the upper energy center (brain) and simultaneously in the lower energy center at all times, while circulating through the fire path. Always return the mind (and the Qi) to the lower energy center and hold it there when you're finished.
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Postby laotse » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:48 am

hi

thanks for your detailed instructions.

but why there is no danger to open the leg channels after the opening of microcosmic orbit? (macrocosmic orbit)

also in the book qigong empowerment Shou-Yu Liang teachs his students to open the conception vessel first including the leg channels. he doesn't speak about such things.


i think, dr. yang says often that it is really important to understand the theory first and than the practise. but he only writes some warnings without any explanation.


and your suggest to collect the energy at the end of a session at the dantien let the chi increasing with the time, so that it will becomes abundant in some time. my dantien feel sometimes really warm.
so i think there have to be a way that the chi is abundant without any danger.

yours
laotse
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Postby Dvivid » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:28 am

Master Yang is a rare 'open' teacher who teaches in depth about the subject, including the warnings you may not hear from other sources. other teachers may assume that you will not generate enough Qi to be a danger to yourself, while Master Yang is 'playing it safe' and informing us that it is wise to be careful.

One commonly know problem area is the junction of the legs. Beginners can fry the nerves there and end up paralyzed. It has happened. So, if you build your circulation gradually and safely in the torso, using the safe fire path, and avoiding the three tricky gates, as taught comprehensively by Master Yang, you will build up good circulation. When you then start to lead energy to the legs in grand circulation, your excess Qi will naturally flow to the widened channels in your torso, lowering the risk of an 'overflow' into the legs.

I don't believe Master Yang says there is 'no danger' circulating into the legs once you've mastered Small Circulation. In fact, Grand Circulation is the topic of his next Qigong book, so we will learn more about it from him then. Until then, legs closed, Small Circulation - unless you have other information from a source which you trust.

Do you understand now?

Thank you.
Last edited by Dvivid on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby laotse » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:47 pm

hi

yes, i understand you all the time, but the topic creates a little bit confusion, because everybody knows other things about theses practises.

what do you think about the opening of the conception vessel first?

my opinion is, that it's very easy to open gouvaneur vessel but really really hard to open conception vessel. so i think there is the only and the main danger in my experience. because if the energy is in the head and you aren't able to bring it down, you become very confuse.

i only have to contract my pc-muscle or huiyin cavity as you call it, and the chi goes into my head very fast by its own. but to lead it down i have still some problemes. and so sometimes i felt a little bit dizzy or high after practising. so i'm only working with the front channel now.

yours
lao
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Postby Dvivid » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:21 am

Conception Vessel
I know what you mean about feeling the Qi in the front of the body. Its very different than the back, and sometimes 'harder' to feel. One way to emphasize this is a practice I've done with Master Yang sometimes:

Hold the tongue at the roof of the mouth and allow saliva to generate.

Inhale through the third eye and swallow the saliva and use the mind to 'follow' it down to the stomach. Visualize your Qi travelling down in this path from the third eye, through the mouth, down the front of the body, and past the stomach into to the lower dan tian.

Sometimes we need physical feedback when we're training to give us a stronger sensation that we can then use to develop a stronger visualization and feeling of Qi.

Hui Yin
Master Yang is careful to tell people to only pump the Hui Yin GENTLY to avoid this problem of stagnation or even hemmoroids. Try just barely activating the muscles. It works just as well, if not better. Also, try focusing the movement a bit closer to the front of that area, away from the "grain path!" (anus).


Blockade
Yes, the first tricky gate is in the tailbone. You can read all about it in Dr Yang's new small circulation book. It is best to NOT think about that problem area, and just visualize the energy moving from the perenium area around the tailbone and up the back with no problem. The mind leads the Qi. Visualize it happening, and with practice it will it happen.

Relax and enjoy your practice.
Last edited by Dvivid on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby laotse » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:25 pm

hi

thank you, it's a good way to open the conception vessel.

thanks for your answers :D

lao
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Postby joeblast » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:11 am

Dvivid wrote:So, if you build your circulation gradually and safely in the torso, using the safe fire path, and avoiding the three tricky gates, as taught comprehensively by Master Yang, you will build up good circulation.

Dave, just wanted to ask a quick question to clarify the 'avoiding the 3 tricky gates' bit - I'm interpreting that as just avoiding placing the mind there so the qi does not stagnate, correct?
Thanks!
Dan
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Postby stephenbuck415 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:36 pm

laotse wrote:... (polite snip)
yes, i understand you all the time, but the topic creates a little bit confusion, because everybody knows other things about theses practises.
... (polite snip)


Hi Laotse.

I have a background of several spiritual meditation systems working with energy. Admittedly I have been aware of Dr. Jang's Qigong for quite some time but have been busying myself about with these other systems.

I am now focusing on Dr. Jang's work because I feel he presents the most solid and reliable source of information. In my opinion most of the new-age spiritual meditations have all roots in the last 4,000 years of Chinese practice and study of Qigong. Much of the standard bookshelf new-age material seems to be authored on hearsay and repeating what someone else has said because it is creatively inspirational (from Hindu philosophical works). The main difference between Hindu and Chinese systems as I see it is that the Hindu's focused primarily on cultivation of the energies through yoga / kundalini practices but kept things spiritual and did not investigate relations to the physical body as much as did the Chinese.

It seems the Chinese put an equal amount of attention into both. How does the energy affect the body, how does the energy affect the mind/spirit.

So with that in mind I will repeat that my study and practice into Qigong at this level is new. Because I am a new student I am going to focus on performing all exercises in the manner they are prescribed.

I have a lot of experiential knowledge from other systems but if I integrate those techniques into the new system I am just beginning to learn, then I will not learn how the specific exercises actually affect me.

Even if others say "this does this" and "that does that" and "believe in me, this is the better way to do it and the only true way of spirit" I will still perform the exercises in the manner prescribed by Dr. Jang.

This establishes a solid, experiential reference that will better allow me to make more comparisons to other practices that I have already had, and will eventually meet in the future.
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Postby Dvivid » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:22 am

Its spelled Yang.

Dr. Yang.

Jwing-Ming is his first name. The traditional way of stating Chinese names is last name first.
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Postby Yue » Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:13 am

Don't wanna get off topic here, but...can practicing small circulation turn your body to a yang state like Yi Jin Jing? I get freaked out when I think about the rapid aging caused by being in a yang state.
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Postby Dvivid » Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:22 am

When you finish small circ, bring the mind into the real dan tian and hold it there for several minutes, while embryonic breathing. Build a habit of always doing this.

This will help to keep you from exploding.

PS - Joe: Yes, exactly. The Yi Leads the Qi.
Last edited by Dvivid on Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby yeniseri » Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:23 am

Yue wrote:''can practicing small circulation turn your body to a yang state like Yi Jin Jing? I get freaked out when I think about the rapid aging caused by being in a yang state.


Sometimes the understanding of terminology and the experience of it are miles apart and never they will meet!

Rapid aging compared to what? Does that mean we practice yijinjing today and suddenly reach 60 years tomorrow? Highly unlikely but Yijinjing is rarely the cause of 'rapid aging'.
Aging in the TCM parlance may be due to excess, deficiency and stagnation all happenning at the same time translating as a modern equlvalent of improper nutrition, excess nutrition causing deficiency (not enough physical activity) and excess (manifesting as abdominal adiposity).

There are some basic principles regarding shougong, which may seem redundant or foolish in all qigong but after, let us say, a few rounds of Yijinjing, the body is yang (relatively speaking) so that is why we turn the tongue in mouth for so many rotations then we swallow the saliva to put out the 'heat' with hands at dantian/qihai for so many minutes to 'ground' /settle the 'cooling'.
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Postby Yue » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:11 pm

I have zero experience with Yi Jin Jing, I'm just stating what I read in Qigong - the Secret of Youth. Dr. Yang said that practicing Yi Jin Jing can make your body yang and cause loss of longevity.
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Postby joeblast » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:07 pm

I cant remember where I read this, but I read an article about training the conception vessel before the governing vessel. If I recall correctly, the rationale was that since its generally accepted that the conception vessel is harder to open up, doing that first helps avoid (mostly stagnation) issues from having opened the governing vessel and building qi up without a yin path sufficiently open to balance. (Thoughts, anyone?)

Yue, if you think about it, you just need to balance the yang, that's all. Kan & Li. Yi Jin Jing is Yang, a Kan method; its only the absence of a balancing Li that should be a problem. Hence stuff like shougong. As far as small circulation goes, I think that depends on your breathing - your breathing can be too yang if you make it so, but imho it seems contrary to the point of small circulation. You want to relax, and relaxed sitting meditation shouldnt be very yang at all.
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Postby Yue » Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:24 pm

You make several good points. The small circluation part makes sense I guess, relaxation shouldn't be yang. But the Li of Yi Jin Jing is IMO the most dangerous qigong excersise possible: Xi Sui Jing. I read in Qigong - the Secret of Youth that if you don't do Xi Sui Jing after building up abundant qi from Yi Jin Jing your body will age and degenerate extremely rapidly. As I said, I have no experience with Yi Jin Jing, I'm just stating what I read.
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Postby joeblast » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:21 pm

I have the Secret of Youth book, too...after I read it I realized I had a LOT more to read and learn in many other aspects of qigong before I would ever be ready for YJJ & XSJ, if ever. It says 'an advanced regimen for the serious practitioner' for good reason :) As I understand, you should master grand circulation before being ready for something like this - these practices build up high amounts of qi and if you dont have the 'support structure' in place to handle it, you can get hurt.
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Postby Yue » Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:07 pm

Yeah, Xi Sui Jing scares the dren outta me. IMHO it's the most likely cause of qigong insanity.
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